Webmaster World PubCon Las Vegas 2006 - How I Learned I am an SEO Loser
Please note: Throughout this article I use terms like webmaster and SEO interchangeably. If I call someone an SEO, take it with a grain of salt, as they could really be anything from a PPC affiliate to a forum administrator.
I flew out of SJC (San Jose) heading to my first PubCon ever. I was very excited—I’ve been doing SEO for years but never shelled out the money to attend a full event. I eagerly awaited my chance to meet the people I listen to on Webmaster Radio and the authors of blogs I read (like Shoemoney, Oilman, Web Guerilla, Aaron Wall of SEO Book, rand from SEOMoz, etc). I’d listened to them so frequently and read so many blog posts that I felt like I already knew them. In my mind, we were already friends.
After I arrived in Vegas and checked into my hotel room at the Renaissance (which I stayed at just because I thought it was where most of the SEO / webmasters would be) I headed over to the conference and sat down for Guy Kawasaki’s keynote. I thought he was a funny, articulate, and eloquent guy. It seemed the conference was off to a solid start.
A massive registration line kept me from the second session, however the following panel on link building was among the best I attended, largely due to Roger Montti’s impressive willingness to disclose specific, ‘actionable’ methods for building authoritative links (way to go Roger!).
It was at the Link and SEO Dev Site Review Forum panel that I was first exposed to the disposition that would inspire SEO Loser. Many of the attendees at the conference were webmasters—not SEOs—and knew very little about search. This panel gave them an opportunity to have their site reviewed and to receive feedback from some of the best SEOs at the conference.
Instead, the SEOs, particularly Rae Hoffman (I’m proud to say I had to look up your name! hah!) tore into the webmasters that had approached them for help. A quick linkdomain: in Yahoo revealed a number of backlink issues (which one should expect—that’s why these people are asking for help). Instead of ‘constructive criticism,’ the panelists were incredibly aggressive, and often seemed like they were trying to humiliate the naïvely unsuspecting webmasters.
I honestly felt bad. And much of what the SEOs were finding was basic stuff—purchased links, reciprocal campaigns, etc. Newsflash to Rae Hoffman: We are not impressed by your ability to type linkdomain:www.URL.com into Yahoo and identify paid links. And we especially aren’t impressed by your condescending, degrading tone. If you don’t know you’re doing it, consider this post a favor.
Keep in mind, I was not involved in the panel in anyway, nor was I one of the site owners. I was just an innocent bystander watching the onslaught.
Dixon Jones, who I later met and found to be exceedingly nice and unpretentious, was trying his best to be positive but even he slipped at times. I recall walking out of the session thinking “damn, those SEOs were assholes and most of the criticism was SEO 101. Are they acting like that to impress potential clients?” I certainly did not think “Wow, they sure knew their stuff. They really helped those people.” Honestly, the latter is the reaction I wanted.
Then I randomly saw Shoemoney (or Jeremy Schoemaker)!—my personal favorite member of the Webmaster Radio cast in the hallway. I felt like I had to say something, I mean I’ve literally listened to the guy talk for 20+ hours and I love his show. I’ve also been posting on DP (Digital Point) for years where he is very active. From my perspective, I already knew him. So, I tapped him on the shoulder and just said “Hey man, I absolutely love your show. It’s really awesome, I’ve listened to every episode.” At this point I wasn’t even thinking of how often he might get that. He said something like “Thanks man. Stop by such-and-such booth tomorrow and I’ll give you a Shoemoney shirt.” After that, I didn’t really know what else to say. I mean there is so much stuff I work on that he is also involved in that we could probably have spent hours talking together and I know from his show that we’d have gotten along very well. I sort of stood there for a minute and nothing came to mind to say. After about 10 seconds another young guy like myself came up and echoed my sentiments, this time offering to buy him a beer later. Shoemoney was nice, and to this he was actually able to respond. The guy gave him something to talk about, and he said “Definitely man, we’ll be at the Renaissance later tonight.”
I walked away thinking, “Damn, that’s kinda weird. I just said hi”—and that was it. I love this guy’s work, the personality he puts forth on his show, I find his weight-loss story incredibly inspirational, and despite his occasional “big-headedness” (which imo is pretty much warranted) I really admire him as a person. Don’t get me wrong—I admire him, I don’t worship him. I think the things he’s done are cool, and I think I can relate to him in a lot of ways because so much of my “career” is so similar, so I’d have loved to hang out and talk with him more.
After my brief talk with Shoemoney, I rejoined my buddy from home and told him who I’d just met. He’s not really familiar with Shoemoney, but he asked “What’d you guys talk about?” or “What did you say?”
“Ummm, I didn’t say anything. I didn’t know what to say to him—I just said hey I love your stuff—I guess maybe I was star struck?”
My friend laughed and told me I was an idiot. Little did I know I would later confirm this beyond any shadow of a doubt by approaching Shoemoney once again, this time in the hotel bathroom (no, I didn’t follow him in, I was surprised he was in there), in a somewhat-drunken, post-Google happy hour state. Needless to say, this time he looked more scared than anything else 
That night, we went out to the Yahoo party. They were very exclusive at the door (although the Yahoo guy at the entrance was awesome) and my friend ended up just heading home instead of waiting to try and get in. I wanted to go upstairs not for the open bar or even the cool scenery, but just because this was the first time in my life I was walking in crowds where I could overhear someone talking about a 301 redirect or how you should diversify your anchor text.
After about 15 minutes the guy at the door got me a bracelet and I headed up (thanks again if you ever read this, love you for that!). This is where I first discovered what I really was: an SEO Loser.
You may have noticed at the top that I subtitled this blog “a loser among losers.” That’s because these guys are, largely, total nerds. Don’t get me wrong, I’m a nerd too, and I love people like that, but let’s be honest. I did not expect these kind of people to be cliquey or exclusive in anyway, and I was anxious to hear their opinions on things, so I was just sort of link a pinball bouncing around talking to pretty much everyone. I met some cool people (Lawrence from Rate it All was hands down the nicest most down-to-earth speaker I met; Jolina and Karen you guys rule too) but I also met a lot of people who didn’t want to talk to anyone they didn’t know. Or speakers who would only talk to other speakers. This, I had not expected. At all.
I am not an exclusive person by nature. I have my faults, but one thought I remember having at an exclusive party in high school was “this is cool, but it would be the most fun if everyone could come.” My idea of a fun party and a good atmosphere is one in which there is no aggression, no condescension, and no exclusion. For those of you who haven’t gone to your first conference yet, let me say something very clearly: The majority of the successful or famous webmasters and SEOs are more exclusive and cliquey than a group of popular highschoolers.
I can remember laughing at the equally exclusive MSN party (just as a humorous side note: when we were about to enter the MSN party, to which we weren’t 100% invited, and the bouncer asked an MSN rep we’d met at the show if he should let us in, she asked them if it would “cost them extra”—come on Microsoft, you can afford to let three guys into your party, particularly when one of them alone spends about 10k a month on AdCenter 
) when I saw one of the guys from the Webmaster Radio show (Oilman) “SEO Rockstars.” He really was a rock star at this SEO event. He was having free alcohol thrown at him, girls were fighting to talk to him, and he was dancing up and down in a nice club overlooking Las Vegas. Sitting at our table were Danny Sullivan, Oilman, Dixon Jones, MSN Reps and the Director of Product Management for Yahoo! Search, Tim Mayer. Oilman is another guy I’ve listened to for countless hours on Webmaster Radio and really liked (although I think he’s a bit old school). Like with Shoemoney, I felt like we were friends. And again (ignorantly, I guess) I went into things with the thought that he would like me as much as I liked him. I stood up, shook his hand, told him I had learned that saying this kind of thing would result in my embarrassment but I had to tell him I loved the show. He was polite, but certainly not interested in talking to an SEO Loser for more than a few seconds (in retrospect, can I really blame him? The guy had girls attacking him and alcohol flooding the table in front of us). The face of SEO was nothing I could have imagined. But the “SEO Rockstars” moniker suddenly made a lot of sense. For the rest of the party I hung out with Lawrence (as I said earlier, hands down the nicest speaker I met) and a friend of his (who was very cool as well—sorry, unfortunately I was past my name-remembering number of beers at this point).
I believe it was the next day that we were at a Google or Ask sponsored happy hour when I saw another person I admire very much: Shawn Hogan. The reasons might be stupid—I love posting on his forums (Digital Point) and I can relate to him, probably because he is also a young, tech guy with many of the same hobbies (at least according to his site) I have. Again, I had to approach. I couldn’t seem to learn my lesson, and right now as I type I still am not sure if I’m proud or embarrassed of that. I went up to Shawn, who was talking to a couple friends (keep in mind he is much more inconspicuous because he was not a speaker, and dressed wearing a beanie, jeans and a t-shirt as I recall), leaned in and said “Hey, I really don’t mean to interrupt you guys, but are you Shawn Hogan?” “Yeah,” he replied.
Sweet! This guy owns pretty much (imo) the best webmaster related forums on the web and he’s an extremely successful entrepreneur. I don’t look up to people like this for their money, their brains, or anything like that—I look up to them because they show you what you could be doing, and they are an inspiration.
“I’m not going to mess this up like I did with Shoemoney,” I thought. “Man, I love your forums!” Hmmm… I don’t know if that’s the best opener or not. I didn’t plan it out—although in hindsight I probably should have. I don’t know if there’s something wrong with me, but these webmasters were honestly harder for me to talk to than a hot girl at a college party (I’m a recent graduate). When I go up to a hot girl at a cocktail party and say ‘hi,’ there’s a good chance they’ll start talking back. They try to make conversation, at least the vast majority of the time.
After I paid him my compliment, I think he said “Thanks” and sort of looked at the ground and started quietly laughing—perhaps an equivalent to blushing; I’m not sure. Then, hilariously, someone in the group actually chimed in, mimicking me, like you might expect from a freshman in highschool. “Hey man I love your forums!” an artificially retarded, sarcastic sounding voice echoed. Wow, I’m an SEO loser, I thought. Why does this keep happening? I will admit I think I actually might have cracked a smile. The copycat was a little mean but also funny.
Here I was, getting denied right and left, by a bunch of 25-50 year old nerdy guys. I had a collection of mixed emotions. I didn’t know if I was going to laugh or cry. I was still having a fantastic time (maybe the free beer helped with that), and I certainly wasn’t hurt or offended, but I was a little upset just because I think those people would have been so fun to have a real conversation with if they didn’t make it so difficult.
After a few seconds of standing there trying to decide if I had another stupid compliment to throw out there or whether it was time for the walk of shame, a German guy started to talk to me. Wow, I was shocked. Someone in a webmaster clique seemed interested in having a conversation with me—by this time, I had decided my chances would be better with Paris Hilton than an SEO.
After talking to the German for a few minutes (I think your name was Markus, but I’m not 100% so I’ll stick with “the German”) I recognized his voice. “This guy sounds really, really familiar,” I thought.
Suddenly I realized I’d heard this voice on Webmaster Radio—more specifically, I had heard him talk a bit on the Shoemoney show when it was broadcast live from SES San Jose (I believe). “Hey, were you on the Shoemoney show?” I asked.
“Okay, it was nice talking to you” he said, and then started to turn. At this point, it wouldn’t have surprised me if he were serious, but fortunately we was laughing and turned back. We talked for a few minutes about the black hat SEO you could get away with in Germany and how much fun he was having with it before Shawn’s entourage started wandering away and my German quasi-friend followed.
Well, I got out more than a one-liner, I laughed.
In retrospect the whole scene was ridiculous, but when I sit back and think about it, maybe I should have expected it. After all, look at me. I think I’m pretty good at SEO. Extrapolate that to how I would feel if I were speaking on panels in front of hundreds of people paying $500 a piece to attend the sessions, and maybe I’d have a huge ego too.
Still, I believe, and really hope, that someday if I am more than an SEO Loser, I treat people the way I would want them to treat me. I’m going to be the baseball player that signs kids’ autographs for free–not the one that charges $50. Maybe it gets tiresome having so much appreciation and admiration thrown your way at these events. Who knows? One thing is certain though: These were SEO Rockstars.
Final Note: I hope no one takes offense to what I wrote here (but Rae, I think you really need to make an effort to treat people better. I felt so bad for the guy you told to “come up afterwards” like he was an elementary school student going to the principal’s office), if anyone even reads it. I’m not hurt, and this blog is written half in jest. I realize many of you are absolutely swamped with praise and attention, and that might be overwhelming. I was never really insulted or offended by anyone. The worst thing I can say while being entirely honest is that I had a fantastic time that might have been even better had some of the people I think so highly of been a little more receptive to me. I don’t hold it against any of you though—I am an SEO Loser
Great post. I actually remember reading your bathroom comment on Shoemoney’s blog. Very enlightening read for those of us who are neither webmasters nor SEO’s.
Awesome, thanks for being the first to comment! I started typing thinking it would only be a page but it ended up going much longer so I was worried no one would make it through the whole thing :).
Cool post, you write really well. I’ve always thought that would be roughly my experience if I ever went to a webmaster event, and you basically confirmed it.
Thanks for the kind words! This is my first blog (I guess I missed that wave) and it’s really cool to see people commenting!
Dude, this was hilarious. Rae is OK tho, I think she was just having a hard time with something last week. She’s normally pretty cool at conferences from what I’ve seen.
I thought these SEO guys and gals were pretty easy to chat with… but that’s probably because my shtick was so loud that they had no choice but to smile and nod and let the crazy dude get a pic.
Next time, try weed bait. I bet you’ll get some strong buzz happening that way… and plus, feel good about hte fact you even got into any cool parties. I speny almost 14 million so far online this year and got 0 invites to exclusive parties. I didn’t even know where the final day’s party was until I went to the conference center and met a bunhc of people there who were as lost as I was.
This is all probably because I am a jack ass. I too, am and SEO loser.
Great! I’m having an awesome time getting these comments.. I was hoping some people might get a kick out of the story. I actually found that I was laughing at the scene (and my own fumbles / embarrassments) over and over again when I was there.
Also, about Rae–I hope I’m not offending her (or anyone) with some of my opinions–I just tried to be as honest as I could and expressed my feelings in a way that reflected how I felt at the conference. I wouldn’t be surprised at all if she actually is a very nice person–what I wrote in the blog is just the impression I got from her at the panel.
Anyway thanks again for the comments!
Hit the nail on the head when you compared to high school. I had pretty much the same lame stategy (sorry!) as you, say hello, pass compliment, deafening silence, walk of shame. But the more I think about it the less I can fault the “in crowd” at Pubcon. There is only a certain amount of people you have a genuine dialog with and the comfort of old friends is always much easier. Chris “Drinkbait” did it with humour and putting himself out there and you gotta love that!
Next Time I see you loser I´ll come up and say - “Hello aren´t you SEOloser? I really like your blog!” - you see now that Matt Cutts has mention you on his blog - your a post pubcon rockstar!
See Matts Comments: Thursday Post
Great post I think it would be my social experience at Pubon, or any of the others, as well.
Wasn’t it Bill Gates that said: Be nice to nerds in high school, the chance you will be working for one in the future is pretty big!
Funny post which shows that people are people no matter what type they are.
Cheers,
Peter
Awesome! I can’t believe MattCutts referenced the site on his blog! I’m really excited about that
Not to get greedy here but too bad it was in a comment instead of the main post 
Anyway just the fact that he found his way here at all makes me happy.
Hey I stumbled here somehow, nice post and very interesting. I personally wouldn’t try to get with the “in crowd” but thats just me. Would you recommend going to these PubCon’s and do they have info not found elsewhere?
Keep posting because I like your honesty and perspective.
Toseef
Your bigtime Baby!
Dude, me and Chris are so big time! When we go to conferences we are going to be mobbed by millionaires asking us how we got so frikkin awesome.
This is how I see it going down…
They will be like “OMFG aren’t you the guy who came up with that tactic of saying [I like your blog] and then walking away?” and YOU, aren’t you the guy who people like because you are an obnoxious prick? OMFG.
Then they will stop talking, and me and Kris will drink like 30 beers real fast. Then me and Kris will walk off, looking all bad ass. It’s gonna be so awesome.
Shit, I’ll probably have to start wearing leather pants and sunglasses indoors and doing coke all day because we’ll be such rockstars.
BTW- ignore everything I just posted. It’s family tradition that me and my brothers pound a few beers after our turkey, which is probably giving me these delusions of grandeur.
Haha, all part of a good thanksgiving! I’m pretty addicted to my own blog at the moment, I keep coming back to check the comments.. it’s been really fun for me to see what people think since I just tried to put my opinion out there as blatantly as I could.. cool to see that some people are enjoying it.
Toseef: Yes, I’d recommend going to them in the future. I had a great time and learned a lot. To me, the most valuable panels were those the consisted of actual Google / Yahoo / MSN employees because they were the ones who were able to express facts as opposed to opinions or theories. I’m really glad you liked the blog and will post more in the future–I’m just going to wait until I feel like I really have something interesting to say
Good post.
You know usually the “little not known speakers” are the schmucks of the show. I did few 30 second videos called “1 marketing tip from speakers” where I recorded guys like Lee Odden, Andy Beal, Todd Malicoat, etc. Only one guy I asked to do the video refused to do it … and I don’t even know his name.
Hey … it’s his choice and I don’t mind it, but he did give a bit of an attitude and that’s a shame. When someone wants to capture what you have to say … be thankful, don’t be a jerk. If you don’t feel like doing it … just say nicely, sorry but not this time. I just remember that he was a young looking (19 to 24 years old) kid.
I agree 100%.
That’s really the kind of thing that made me want to post about my experiences…
Great article. If I ever get to a Pubcon I’d hang out with you. Maybe we can form our own elite clique !
I created my blog as a tounge in cheek response too many of the celebrity SEO blogs. I was spamming AV way before a lot of these guys started.
My hats are off to them though.
Shoot me an e-mail, I’m curious what your DP username is.
Great read. Your honesty is inspiring. I’m looking forward to more posts.
Well, seems some people took offense to the link dev session. I can’t please everyone. What I can tell you is that this was my third or fourth clinic session at PubCon. I can’t begin to tell you how hard it is to make reviews of another person’s site fun and interesting to an audience of several hundred people who have no personal interest in the site on the screen. Several sessions ago, we took the approach of trying to make it fun and comical. Yes, I’m hard on people, but more to make the session interesting. Dixon is a great partner and he’s also done this clinic with me several times.
As for impressing clients - I take on very little client work - my priority is a slew of my own personal sites that I own. I actually am more interested in giving back to the webmaster community, thus the main reason why I speak at the confs and spend my spare time volunteering as a moderator at webmasterworld. As for the guy I told to come up afterwards, it was to make sure I got his email address correctly to send him some more information when he got home.
As for treating people better, unless you missed the end of the session, then it was just not mentioned in your post above that I thanked every person reviewed in the clinic for letting us poke fun and give them a hard time for the sake of making the session interesting. And I told any of them who were reviewed to come up after the session and tell me who they were so I could spend about 20 minutes of my own time (they get about 5 minutes in the session), for free, when I got home, glancing at their site a bit more and following up via email since they were such good sports if they were interested. All of them but one took me up on that. And I’ll be spending my morning on Monday doing that for them.
As for taking offense, I’ve got thick skin.
But, I do find it amusing that you did the same exact thing in your post (giving people a harder time than neccessary and exaggerating a bit on their mistakes to make the post interesting) that you berated me for doing during the site clinic. 
Hey Rae, thanks for commenting on the blog!
When you point out the irony you perceived in my post (in your final paragraph), I hope you can appreciate the difference between an SEO loser “teasing the SEO elite” (as Matt Cutts referred to it on his blog) and a member of the SEO elite railing on someone with no knowledge of SEO at all. A bit more of a ‘fair fight’ here if you ask me
I just think that when you’re sitting up on a panel you might not realize how you can make a singled-out audience member feel. I really, genuinely felt sorry for the guy. He had several hundred eyes on him as someone basically said “you’re an idiot.”
Anyway, it seems that one of the main comments I’m getting with regard to the post is that you are actually quite a nice person and your panel might have just brushed me the wrong way–and that’s totally possible. As I said, I tried to express my feelings (and actually had notes from your panel where I had jotted down my reactions) as honestly as possible–I’m not saying my opinion is fact, nor am I really trying to indict anyone’s character.
The idea of the blog was just to post my honest assessment, be a little humorous in doing so (or at least try
), and not hold anything back.
Anyway, thanks again for commenting!
—
Chris: Great, glad you liked the post! I’ll try my best to keep ‘em coming
—
SeoRookie: Haha, you’re making me feel unoriginal with that name! Anyway I’m glad to hear someone would hang out with me at the PubCon! Glad you liked the blog.
This was a really good story - if it makes you feel any better - I did the same thing with Shawn H. - and not even by accident after I’ve been to over a dozen shows. It’s just human nature to want to thank someone you’ve spent a lot of time learning from. It’s better to just say hello and thank someone than to try to bilk them for information (or even appear to be).
From the other side of things though - it sometimes feels a bit strange when someone knows a lot about you, but you have never met them. With Shawn - I didn’t have a whole lot to say or ask - but a thank you is always cool too (unless it’s in the bathroom LOL)
I’ve found it’s good to have broad questions that are not too specific to get a conversation started. Some folks are just more guarded within the industry, and don’t really have the desire (or anything to gain) from meeting new people. It’s a shame - but most people really aren’t that way. I’ve found the people (at wmw especially) to be more friendly than any other group of people I’ve ever come across.
With people like shoe, shawn, or anyone else that has dozens of people come up and thank them - you have to expect to meet them a few times before they remember you (tell them something unique - you can bet there won’t be too many folks that forget chris hooley;)
The seo loser schtick isn’t too bad - but I don’t think it’s really what you want to be remembered as that in three years or so…we all started in the same place - some (myself included) just got lucky being in the right place at the right time.
You should definitely hit up SES san jose next year (minimum the exhibit hall and just hanging out) - you’ll get to know more people - and it won’t feel like a clique. There are plenty of people I LIKE to hang out with at the shows - but I still like being able to jump from group to group and meet great new people.
I hope you’ll definitely say hello if you make it to another show - if you approach me and remind me of this post - I’ll buy YOU a drink:)
>“OMFG aren’t you the guy who came up with that tactic of saying [I like your blog] and then walking away?”
LMFAO.
The most entertaining post I’ve read in a long time! Thanks so much for sharing your experience.
I’ll definitely hangout with you at the next one. That is, if you’re not to elite for us by then!
Stuntdubl, careful on that offer - you may get a few seo losers wanting a free drink lol
Hey man, it was nice to meet you. I really enjoy meeting people. You are defiantly not a loser. See you around!
Cool story man. Wish you much success. By the way, is this your only site?
That was so fricken funny my side hurts!
I was in the exact same boat. I had a very similar experience at PubCon except I didn’t even know those parties took place until afterwards.
In my own little profession I am “That Guy” that people want to talk to. I just kinda expect wherever I go everyone will want to be my buddy. I have been studying the SEO stuff hard for the past year, and felt like a lot of people were my friends.
Mostly I found at PubCon a lot of the people simply did not have the courage to walk up to others like you did. I also went around like a SEOL, striking up conversation with random people. My favorite one was a guy who I thought was one of the Moderators at WMS because he had some kind of a staff name tag on, and who turned out to be an employee of the convention center. It took all of my social graces to get away from that conversation.
I actually made a couple of super excellent friends who may not be the SEO rock stars, but are dam close to it. I also had the ridiculous experience of chasing Jake Baillie, of TrueLocal.com after his talk on local search and pumping him for information. He referred me, to Eric Ricossa of Einstein Medical. I found Eric, and sure enough he was someone I had already known from 10 years ago in a completely different business. I had traveled all the way there to get help, only to be referred to an old friend! I am good friends with his mom, so we called his mom and were going, “Geez… guess who I ran into at Pubcon! That was the highlight of my social endeavors.
On WebMasterWorld there has been a bit of chatter about not getting enough social time in. Brett did a rockin job of running such a big show, (by his words the biggest PubCon to date.) I personally from now on will be throwing my own parties at PubCons or other events like it, just so the average Joe has a place to hang out and mingle.
Whatever search event is next that I go to, I will throw a swinging party somewhere, and you are all invited!! The lamer, the better!!
Much Love, and thanks for the frickenly awsome post!!
Dr. David Klein - BodyABCs.com
(The chiropractor that got his site reviewed at PubCon)
Hiya. I Haven’t read Matt’s Blog yet, but yours was a great read. Don’t worry - Rae can take the heat. I never had so many compliments about a session than this year’s with Rae and I have to say that Rae was the star of the session this time round. I just piggy backed on her brand
- Next time round, though, we’ll make it clearer how dangerous putting your site up can be for people. We usually do. We usually also have an extra person on the panel, which gives us a bit more time to think.
Your post assumes that the speakers have the slightest idea what to say to keep a conversation going themselves. I may be all smiles and chat on the stage - but I’m just another scared guy when I get down and frankly I’m hardly a Matt or a Danny so I tend to just blend in. I’m as scared to talk to you as you are to me at those events. Even MORE so in a way because if I make a pillock of myself, someone would blog about it and because I’ve been on the forum for so long, my handle and my brand are the same thing so I’ve pretty much exposed my company there. I think lots of the speakers are the same. I’ve been going to the same conferences as Tim Mayer for about seven years now and we finally shook hands in Boston but only actually talked this time round. It’s hard talking to a stranger!
Here’s my interests for anyone next time round (assuming BT let’s me on the stage again): I love Chess and Power Kites. I write Murder Mystery Games (or used to) and that’s a good tale for Internet people. Two kids, off road cycling and hill walking are all good subjects for me. If your site is your hobby or your passion, then chances are we’ll have common “chatting” ground. If you site is a mathematical money making machine only, then the conversation will still be fun - but a bit more heated!
Infact - thinking through all that - I probably engage better in a conversation if we start with a difference of opinion. Politics is a great place to start.
Thanks for the post.
Too Funny.
I almost never know what to say either. Sometimes I’ll be able to recall a blog post that I liked and be able to strike up a conversation that way. Other times I just introduce myself to everyone around me. Sometimes I meet big names who don’t don’t have recognizable faces by chance. These encounters go much more smoothly than when I recognize the person in advance. Otherwise, I’m totally lost.
I enjoyed your post and like your self depracating humor. Actually I had the opposite experience and found most “famous” seo’s to be quite friendly and open to meeting new people. Of course I’m more like weedbait….err….drinkbait and probably didn’t notice if they were trying to blow me off. I don’t think there’s another industry where people are as geniunely friendly or else why would they even respond to your blog? I’m sure your the best seo loser they could hope to meet. Besides after meeting Karen and Jolina why would you care whether you met anyone else?
Dude,
Loved your post. I was there at Webmasterworld and used to feel the same way you did. Don’t let it get you down (as I am sure you are passed it after reading all these posts).
I basically stay quiet at these seminars after speaking to a few different arrogant types a number of years ago.
Money may not be your thing, but it is mine and if these ‘rockstars’ make 1/10th of the money I pull down, I would be surprised. Stick to the basics and go to these conferences to keep up on the industry. Don’t worry about being Mr. Popular. That isn’t the important stuff anyway.
Michael
Hey Loser! Great post!
I’m sure a lot of peeps can relate to your experience… I was unable to attend the past PubCon, but I know that I went through a lot of the same things you wrote about during my first few conferences.
Looking forward to your future posts!
P.S. Why did you choose Sting for your header image?
Okay sorry I didn’t reply to all these comments earlier! Here goes:
stuntdubl: I agree completely about the ‘human nature’ thing. People have responded to this blog asking things like “well what did you expect to get out of the conversations?” My answer, honestly, is “nothing, just wanted to talk.” I wasn’t going into it trying to find secrets or anything like that–I just find the stuff these guys do very fun and interesting.
As for being remembered as the SEO loser; that’s crossed my mind several times, but I keep saying to myself “Who cares?” Really, I’m just there to have fun and learn. If some people dislike me for my opinions, I may as well just confront that straight out.
Because I’m from Santa Cruz, I actually have attended the expo only at SES San Jose. I was only there for a bit, though, and had a much different experience attending a full event (which is why I consider this to be my first show).
Looking forward to that drink if I ever see you!
Crashingflrwgrl: Great, glad you liked the post! Don’t worry–I think it’s a pretty safe bet that I won’t be too elite, ever :).
Shoemoney: Thanks for commenting, man! Glad you found your way over here. See ya around.
credit guy: Thanks! No, this isn’t my only site but probably the only one that would be of interest to SEOs / this crowd
Dr. David Klein: Haha, I’m stoked to hear you got a kick out of the post! That was the goal
I definitely remember your site coming up in the review session. San Diego Chiropractic, right? Good luck with your site and once again I’m really glad you enjoyed the blog! I’ll post more in the future so check back.
Dixon Jones: Hey man! I agree with pretty much everything you said. One of things I was afraid of in this post was that people might think I was expecting a lot of the speakers or rockstars. I tried to express in my post that I sympathize with the ‘famous people’ in many ways and actually was laughing at myself much of time. It was more the unexpectedness of the whole scene that I found so humorous. Of course the speakers had no idea what to say to me–I know it was my ‘job’ to get a conversation going with them, but I honestly hadn’t planned out my approach at all. Like I said in the original post, I felt like I actually knew these people, and (of course) was faced with the fact that they had no idea who I was.
I also have to admit I hadn’t thought of your point about speakers potentially being nervous about talking because of the way a misstatement (or something) might reflect on their company. Fair enough!
I will say I had a great time talking to you at the Ghost Bar. You probably don’t remember who I am, but I was the guy who had an emo-looking friend who wouldn’t stop dancing. The way we started talking was that I was tapping him on the shoulder to give him a little “take it easy before we get thrown out of here” nudge and you noticed and said something like “aw he’s alright.” As a funny side note: the next morning we woke up hungover in our hotel room and the first thing he said was “Man, I don’t mean to brag or anything, but I was the LIFE of that party last night.” haha.
Hope to see you again, you were definitely one of the nicest speakers I met there; no question.
Hawaii SEO: Glad you liked the post
Sounds like you and I have a lot in common (no offense!).
David Temple: Glad you liked the post! I’m also glad to hear you had a good experience there. Karen and Jolina were awesome, I agree. I will say that your comment about them posting on the blog is sort of testament to the power of blogging. I think I heard someone at the conference refer to it at the “great equalizer.” Thanks again for commenting!
Michael: Glad you loved the post! Don’t worry, it never got me down, I was just surprised, confused and amused :). It’s sad that people have to stay quiet at these kinds of events after experiences with arrogant people. Lots of “no-name” guys I spoke to there felt the same way, and I think it’s kind of a shame. I was thinking today of what I’d do if I went again, and I think I would probably do it the same way, however foolish that may sound.
Kid_Disco: Glad you liked the post! It does seem like quite a few of us have had experiences like this… I will definitely post more so check back! I just want to make sure I have something good to write about first. That’s Sting?! Haha, I honestly didn’t know! I searched i Stock Photo for “loser” and was just looking for a funny image that would fit with my experiences and that’s the one I chose
[…] It has been really cool and surprisingly fun to see the reaction to my initial post about my experiences as an SEO Loser. Thank you very much to everyone who Dugg, commented on, or even just read the post! I’m happy some of you enjoyed it. This post will basically be a summary of how I promoted the post, who reacted to it, and how. Keep in mind that I am a total blog newbie so maybe some of you will comment with advice on what I could have done better. […]
Wow, but dittos here from another SEO Loser.
I just came across this site, but coincidentally had already decided not to go to SES Chicago because I’d likely come to the same conclusions about myself that you did. i.e. I’d fall flat on my face in my intentions to meet and greet some of the people I feel I already know as kindred spirits. I’ve been through many of the same things all of these rock-stars have been through (i.e. 10 years in business, mostly web marketing in one form or another and I’ve been an SEO since before the label was created) and yet I’m an unknown.
I’d love to sit and have a beer with some of the folks you mentioned, or others, and share some tales from the old days, but he they’d run from me too since it’d be obvious that my intentions would be to eat up their time by talking about myself. In order to convince them I am worthy of their time, wouldn’t I have to?.
Oddly enough, I’ve been always been anonymous but for some reason I count myself as a peer to these folks, too - its just that they don’t know it!! ..so I doubt they’d want to hear from me just because I went out of my way to get to Chicago, or Las Vegas, to tell them.
As far as being known as “The” SEOLoser long-term, please don’t let that comment dissuade you from continuing to discuss related matters here. You should be proud that what you did has aroused attention, created link-bait, an made yourself memorable thereby conquering the loser concept in one keystroke. That’s the opposite the title implies! You’ll want to distinguish yourself in other ways, as we all do, but now you’ve got eyeballs and a platform.
And its obvious there are enough of us out here that are looking for a leaders amongst losers!
AnonymousDitto: Thanks for the great comments. I hope my post doesn’t discourage you from attending an SES, PubCon, or other conference! I had a great time despite the realization that I was a loser
Isn’t it strange how we feel like we know these people when of course they have no idea who we are? In a way it must seem a little creepy for them to meet random guys that know everything about you… I guess they ask for it though.
Again I’m really glad you liked the blog and hope you check back and comment more in the future!
Thanks - I’ll definitely be checking back in - at least watching the feed.
And I’m not discouraged enough to skip conferences, I just will wait until New York for my next one.
I did always wish that these types of things (I’ve been to 1/2 dozen or so) would do a better job at coordinating to put like-minded folks together, those who actually are interested in meeting people rather than standing on a stage. I know SES shows have the birds-of-a-feather lunches, but does anyone go? I couldn’t even find the dang thing at the last SES I attended so I ended up going outside for a hot dog LOL.
Cool, I will be at the New York one as well. I’m also going to the Affiliate Summit in Vegas in January — maybe we could have an SEO Losers get-together at one of these events.
LOL… I don’t think it’s Sting.
I thought it was a pic of you… then I thought it’d be funny say that you look like Sting.
That backfired.
Haha, I was a little worried people would think it was me but then I figured “what the hell” I’m not really going to try to impress anyone with the SEO Loser blog anyway!
Hey Kris, the other guy we were drinking with at Ghost Bar was Jeff Coyle.
Cool, thanks Lawrence! He was a really nice guy so I felt pretty bad fogetting his name.
Hey, didn’t it occur to you that a bunch of “nerds” who spend most of their time in front of their computer doing uber-geeky things like figuring out how to game Google would be somewhat lacking in social graces?
Haha, ironically no, it didn’t
IMO the “nerds” are pretty fun and cool online so I guess I figured it would be the same IRL.
Thanks for the comment BTW, I’m pretty sure I’ve seen you around on quite a few forums I post on..
Nice post - I´m the german guy you talked to. Thanks for writing, that we talked “about the black hat SEO you could get away with in Germany”…
Was great meeting you, and you´re defintly not a SEOLoser!
Haha, I don’t think I gave anything away.. Google seems to be pretty of their problems with European blackhats
Great post, just remember it’s often the quite folks who are taking it all in that are making most of the money, often not the people who spend their time speaking at the conferences or putting on podcasts…
Very true Adam! Thanks for the comment!
Most entertaining blog post I’ve read in a long time. Almost makes me wish I had attended PubCon. Almost.
It sounds like that at the next PubCon, YOUR party will be the one to attend.
Having long ago rubbed shoulders with most of those stars it’s good to know that none of them have had to resort to staged nipple slips to keep their fame.
Haha, you should try attending one, it’s definitely fun and I picked up a few tips (mainly from the actual search engine employees) that probably paid for the trip
It would be really fun to have an SEO Losers’ get-together at a future event.. Maybe if the blog gets popular enough we could do that
Thanks for commenting!
Thanks for the compliments on my presentation. Regarding speakers not knowing how to respond to you, I have to say I did my best to get to know people and listen to them,and it takes a conscious effort. Eventually it becomes dizzying to be around a blur of people coming and going and shaking your hand, not unlike the experience of driving a car for several hours. Good recap, and visit my blog sometime!
Will do, Roger! Glad to see you found your way here!
[…] Read How I learned I am an SEO Loser. […]
One way to break the ice is to pick a forum post or blog entry that someone made that you liked or found interesting and talk to them about it. I like hearing how people took something I said and ran with it or changed it into something different.
lol that sounds like the first time I went to a confernece .. expect I had Mfs like NFFC, RCJordan, MrMackin, Drastic, Toolman ..
DaveN
Kris, dude, I really hope you enjoy living in the Bay Area and I totally understand your sentiments on this issue, I have been in this situation myself; I must say you have done well with the truth:-) If the truth so hurts these Rockstars, then it is a weapon yet unkown to them:-P Perhaps your sentiments have now created a ripple of reliable/stableness, wider than 04′ spamming ever could have hoped to undermine… Truth and honesty are without the shadow of a doubt the future of this game even as far across the globe as Germany or my home Brazil:-)
Keep it REAL Kris, keep it real:-D
congratts!
This was my 3rd PubCon. First time I missed the boat by not trying to meet people. In one session I sat on the floor against the back wall of the room next to some dude messing around on his laoptop. He leans over to me and asks me if I have seen Google’s newest acquisition, Keyhole, while trying to zoom in on the convention center and lamenting the fact that he couldn’t make it go laterally and look into a window of the convention center.
Turns out it was Matt Cutts. We spoke a bit about specific redirct problems and he told me to email him an example. As soon as the session was over, he was surounded by DaveN, JenSense, ChrisR and Oilman. I just stood there listening.
On the way out, I ran into Greg Boser and asked him a question. Once we got outside so he could smoke, I picked his brain for about 15 minutes.
The 2nd PubCon I had a literal hitlist of people I wanted to meet and talk to. I met Roger, Rae, Jake Baille, Todd Friesen, and a few others on the patio off the bar. Later on I met Todd Malicott and Ted Ulle and talked to Friesen for about an hour. My experience at that PubCon was the complete opposite of yours and my impressions were a world apart. The differences for me was a) the scenario was a bar where everyone is usually far more relaxed and b) I came prepared - I had specific questions for just about each individual.
At SES, I went early and staked out the bar again (only had to figure out which of the two). Paydirt! LMAO listening to Boser and DaveN and met even more people like Rand and Darren of WM Radio.
I didnt know what to expect from PubCon this year knowing the size was so mcuh bigger, everyone is spread out over the entire friggin Strip.
One thing I noticed was that the old WMW feel of PubCon was gone. This was now either serious business for many, or serious playtime. Many of the players you mentioned earlier have evolved dramatically over the few years with blackhat spammers now going whitehat corporate. The parties were different as well - I probably went right past you at some point during the Yahoo bash - but many people I expected to see werent there or easy to find after sessions. A few I ran into in other bars. Others. like Aaron Wall, I introduced myself to at the Convention Center, but it was pretty much like what you described with some. It’s just plain ackward and I am sure I was one of dozens that sounded the same to him.
I liked your post and felt like that alot during and after my first PubCon. After that though, I just tried a different approach and found everyone you mentioned to be accessible, friendly and very willing to talk.
Dude, I felt the same way about the cliques in Pubcon. I went there knowing pretty much nobody but hoping to meet people and left thinking most of the big names were a bunch of dicks. For me, the best part of going to shows like SES and Pubcon was meeting “nobodys” like myself that are smart, driven, and not stuck up enough that they couldn’t handle the idea of meeting new people.
The SEO rockstars tried to make it seem like that’s not really how it is (in fact, they talked about your blog on their show - that’s how I heard about it), but having seen them in action in Vegas and see how they treated myself and others I know that they are full of it.
I thought Jenstar had her head up her fat ass at least as far as Rae too.
These people have all done a service for us - with their blogs, their podcasts, their forums, etc. - but they have made it clear that pretty much everyone at those shows are peons compared to them. I am sure it is overwhelming and gets old to hear dozens of people say “hey man, i love your forums/podcast/blog/whatever” each day, but there has to be a better way to treat people than that.
Like you said, these people are all a bunch of geeks too so I guess it is the only chance they get to feel good about themselves. Its too bad they have to make others feel like losers to do it.
Nice post. All of us nerds feel your pain!
I used to manage some high profile stars here in Australia and it never ceased to amaze me how people would react whenever they met them. It was always the same - “Oh my god! I’m such a huge fan.”
That was pretty much all they ever said. It doesn’t take long for the ‘celebrity’ to get a little tired of that and pretty much dismiss them from their mind.
One thing to keep in mind is that a lot of the people you met might be shy/uncomfortable/nervous, etc who aren’t easily given to conversation with strangers. Or they might just be wankers! ;o)
And having said that, people who are building a brand (like the various SEO’s you met) need to understand that developing the skills to engage the fan is an integral part of their ongoing success.
Like you, I like Shoemoney’s positioning/brand in the marketplace. He strikes me as having a little life experience and has endured some struggles (from being obese, on the bones of his arse, etc) and his audience connects with that.
You do realize now that you’re the one they all want to be speaking to at the next PubCon??! (heh, maybe you could do a session on “How to act cool at PubCon”??)
Thanks for a terrific post.
[…] Als kleiner SEO auf einer SEO-Konferenz zu versuchen, mit den wirklich großen Namen ins Gespräch zu kommen, kann manchmal sehr frustrierend sein. Am Ende des Tages fühlt man sich als echter SEO Loser. Eine herrliche Geschichte. Mit einigen Wahrheiten und einigem Link-Bait Potential. […]